24
May
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Announced at CES this year, the ASUS Cube has managed to get a decent amount of attention for a Google TV Box. Formerly known as the Qube, this angular, textured device came to market toward the end of last month, and I've been living with it ever since, trying to get a feel for the product and decide whether ASUS has something special on their hands.

In reviewing the Cube I wanted to answer two main questions that I think underlie every GTV device: Is the user experience a good one, and does the product successfully make Google TV something I actually want to use on a daily basis?

That having been said, let's dive in.

What it Looks Like

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The CUBE is, as you are undoubtedly aware by now, a cube. The body is almost perfectly squared, only broken by diagonal stripes and beveled vertices. On the top, left, and right sides, there's nothing but stripes (save for a USB port on the right). The front has an IR receiver and a power indicator.

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Around back, there are two HDMI ports – one in, one out. There's also a 3.5mm jack for a small, teardrop-shaped IR receiver, in case you need to position the CUBE such that the remote won't hit its main receiver. There's also a DC-in port, as well as one USB port and one Ethernet / LAN port. There's one more USB port inexplicably placed on the side of the device, too.

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What strikes me immediately about the cube is how big it is. It's not bigger than a breadbox at ~4.9" high, wide, and deep, but given how light and airy it feels, I can't help thinking the body could be much, much smaller.

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How it Works

The Interface

So, you know how the Cube is itself a cube? Well, so is the main user interface. The launcher is actually a rectangular prism, on which the long sides represent app/shortcut categories, and the short side is a quick selection of apps/shortcuts related to the category. ASUS' own video illustrates all you need to know about how the prism works.

Of course, from the prism you can get to a full list of apps. Frankly, during my time with the Cube, I rarely did more than casually peruse the categories. The whole prism interface is awkward, unintuitive, and at least a little out of place. Do I know how to beautify Android 3.1 Honeycomb into a cohesive TV experience? No, but I can't help thinking there's a better way to do it than this. The prism would be substantially better if it managed to rotate with a higher frame rate, or switched the Cube branding from the long side to the short side, leaving more room for app shortcuts on its face.

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One thing (perhaps the only thing, in my view) the prism has going for it is that it can be popped up over any app you're using, and popped back out of view if you change your mind, without ever exiting the app you were in previously.

Elsewhere in the Cube, you'll find things you'd expect to find in Android Honeycomb (ASUS hasn't yet announced plans to update the device to Jelly Bean, though LG has already stated it would give its devices the recent update).

If you stick with ASUS' launcher, the app drawer will probably be your best friend. It is still filled with a lot of categories like the Prism, but it is at least marginally easier to navigate.

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Speed

Of course, the Cube's interface would be a lot better if it were actually very smooth. Scrolling through the prism is quick enough but fairly clunky, though the app drawer is just fine. Using the Chrome app, though functional, isn't a great browsing experience, but that opinion is likely a result of my distaste for the remote's keyboard, which we'll see later.

On the subject of speed, launching an app is generally no better than the launcher itself – particularly in the case of Netflix. I found myself waiting and waiting for things to actually launch in some instances, while some apps launched just as fast as I'd expect. Overall, the experience was not ideal. I felt like I was using a somewhat underpowered Honeycomb device.

Pre-Loaded Sundries

There are quite a few things pre-loaded on the Cube. Many of these are web bookmarks for the various categories you'll find in the app drawer and on the prism, few of which I actually found very useful. There are also ASUS-specific gallery apps, a music player, and various other augmentations.

Probably the pre-loaded feature with the most value is PrimeTime, which – if you've connected the Cube up with your cable box – will allow you to switch between "live" TV and on-demand content.

The Remote

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The Cube's remote is pretty similar to most other Google TV remotes – one side is a full keyboard, and the other is closer to what you'd expect a remote to be – channel/volume controls, numbers, and media playback controls joined happily by back, voice, "Guide" and home buttons to help you navigate the Cube with ease. The Cube's touchpad is also used for clicking up, down, left, and right, but can also be used to control a mouse pointer. I point this out not because it's fantastic, but because it's a potentially good idea that's implemented in a way that leaves the experience wanting.

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One thing that weakens the remote's experience for me is the textured directional cues. They're okay for clicking around, but you'll likely hit one of the directions if you haphazardly go for the center "ok" button. The position of the arrows indicates pretty much where the clicking area begins to trigger a directional movement. Bigger than that gripe, though, is that while using the pointer on screen, the textured cues totally disrupt the movement of your finger across the pad. I'm not sure for what purpose the red, green, yellow, and blue diagonal lines exist, but taking a similar low-profile approach to directional cues would have provided a much better pointer experience in my book.

The remote also has a special Netflix button, along with a couple of other buttons like mute, info, menu, and "LiveTV," along with one for a sort of window-in-window functionality.

Did I mention there are voice search and pointer buttons on the side of the remote? There are. And they're positioned in such a way as to cause my hand to graze them (thereby activating them) almost constantly.

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All of that aside, I have to admit that no Google TV remote I've ever personally encountered has provided an excellent navigation experience. Yes, they all (for the most part) have utility, but there are just so. many. buttons. Thinking about it for a moment, I drew a quick comparison to Apple's remote. After all, the prospect of having just seven clickable things on a remote is lust-worthy compared to the idea of having eighty-five clickable things.

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I realized, though, that Apple TV does things in a significantly different way from Google TV. Leaving aside for a moment the question of which is better, I think that perhaps the absolutely crazy remotes of most Google TV units are just a symptom of the platform – it's kind of clunky, hasn't found its killer application (yet?), and has a lot going on. Some people prefer that, but I'm not necessarily one of them.

Conclusion

At the beginning of my review I brought up two questions that I wanted to answer in living with the Cube for several weeks. The first of these asked whether the user experience was a good one. My answer to that is that ASUS has implemented an okay solution to the bad situation that is Google TV. Does the Cube successfully turn Google TV into an excellent experience that I personally would keep around for daily use? The answer to that one is "no."

While the Cube is a well-made (if hollow) device with a few solid ideas, it suffers from the pitfalls inherent in Google's neglected TV platform.There are too many things wrong with Google TV for a unique launcher and a mediocre remote to solve alone.

That said, if you're interested in buying the Cube, it's up for sale at Amazon for $139.99, and Newegg for $142.99.

Liam Spradlin
Liam loves Android, design, user experience, and travel. He doesn't love ill-proportioned letter forms, advertisements made entirely of stock photography, and writing biographical snippets.

  • http://twitter.com/ToysSamurai Toys Samurai

    I got to say that when comparing to what Microsoft is doing with the Xbox, both Google and Apple are losing the war to rule the living room. And, the gap between their products/services are widening -- exactly like how Windows Phone is trailing behind iOS and Android.

    • http://AndroidPolice.com/ Liam Spradlin

      I have to agree. While watching the XBOX announcement there were a few times where I stopped and said "wait, it really does that?"

    • dnice

      Your comments have some merit but lacks depth. Microsoft's XB 1 announcement was nice but is not yet in the marketplace so it's all hype; ie Windows Media Center. If you watched Google io '13, Jelly Bean 4.2 is coming to ARM based Google TV boxes starting with LG this fall (3rd Q) so 1st gen GTV will not see that update. Also Google will be releasing their first Google TV box this fall (Nexus GTV ?). Yes, I watched ALL of the broadcasted workshops online and that's where I'm getting my info.
      https://plus.google.com/+GoogleTVDevelopers/posts/X5rmq6Yu8xG

  • http://www.anivision.org/ Christopher Bailey (Xcom923)

    GTV is not ready for the average consumer. With that said, I love my Asus cube. But that's because I link it with tasker and I run a plex server. I have an entire ecosystem that works better with an open platform. Granted I could have built a streaming box but not for this price. I also think that Google will not continue Google TV as we know it. We haven't seen anything in IO for a while BUT keep in mind they did have a session titled something like "Android for TV" so I'm thinking instead of keeping the Google TV name, they will just fold it into Android. Google has gotten pretty good at giving design tips and I'm sure after this process developers will just add the layouts to their code if it's easy enough (which making layouts is)

    • http://AndroidPolice.com/ Liam Spradlin

      I definitely agree that a Google TV box can be turned into something useful, but as it is, it's just - as you said - not ready for consumers.
      I also agree we may see something soon. GTV finally got a Jelly Bean update, and I think we might even see it in the Q2 (maybe?) with more @Home-oriented functionality.

      • http://www.anivision.org/ Christopher Bailey (Xcom923)

        I think at this point the Q2 is just wishful thinking. While I agree it would be nice, I just have this feeling in my gut that we've seen the last of that product.

  • Levi Wilcox

    Oh yeah all those buttons are so annoying! I'd much rather go through the entire alphanumeric character list to type out a simple search! It's SOOO much more convenient! If you can't operate a GTV remote you're a fucking retard.

    • http://AndroidPolice.com/ Liam Spradlin

      Great contribution to the discussion.

      • Levi Wilcox

        I think it was better than yours.

        • Butch mayday

          Haha you owned him

    • http://www.androidpolice.com/ David Ruddock

      Enjoy the ban, asshole.

      • BanEVERYONE

        yep ban anyone who points out your flaws! that will surely work

  • killer4110

    You shouldn't be allowed to own a Google TV, you have no clue what it was designed for and what it's main function in the living room is. You say you owned the Cube for several weeks, but yet in your screen shot there's no apps from the Play Store loaded, there's no mention of the PrimeTime app, GameNow, PlayOn, Whiteboard and every other app designed for Google TV, it sounds like you just held the remote in your hand and looked at the size of the box. You should just go back to unboxing videos of phones.

    • http://AndroidPolice.com/ Liam Spradlin

      Thanks for the notes, but on the unit I received, it was impossible to get proper screenshots. The apps I used on the device aren't really relevant either to the points I made in the review, or the platform's quality overall.
      Also, I have never done a single unboxing video, so I'm not sure where you're getting that.

      • Levi Wilcox

        Yes the apps design specifically for the platform have nothing to do with it's functionality. Keep showing your ignorance here.

        • http://AndroidPolice.com/ Liam Spradlin

          At the end of the day, this is a product review. I spent time with the product, I didn't love it, and I wrote a review that reflects that. If you disagree, that's your prerogative.

          • Levi Wilcox

            I'm not objecting to your opinion. I'm objecting the fact that this "review" is nothing but unfounded opinions. An actual review contains factual information. You don't mention the measurements other than "it's big" you don't even write about the cpu/ ram specs. I mean this is BASIC stuff here...

          • http://www.androidpolice.com/ Artem Russakovskii

            I am not going to enforce this ban but just to let you know, you sound like a disrespectful douchebag.

          • Dave

            pot, kettle

          • http://www.androidpolice.com/ Artem Russakovskii

            Some comments I was replying to were deleted, you're not seeing the full picture.

          • Levi Wilcox

            None of my comments were deleted.

      • killer4110

        How is it impossible to get proper screen shots, i can get screen shots of any Google TV device i have in the house in a matter of seconds. Also, you claim "There are too many things wrong with Google TV", what's wrong with it? I made the comment about the phone review only because you guys have no clue about Google TV and how to get the most out of it.

        • http://AndroidPolice.com/ Liam Spradlin

          After contacting ASUS directly regarding screenshots, I was told that the screenshots they have were not obtained through normal means and that there was no elegant way to get them from the Cube specifically.

          As I made clear in the review, the platform itself doesn't do enough to augment the TV experience in a way that would convince me to buy a box for $140 and live with it every day. Again, as I've already said, you're free to disagree, but I won't continue to address insults to the knowledge of myself or my colleagues.

          • killer4110

            Umm, how about adb connect = ddms for screen shots. Knowledge? You claim that Google TV is broken, too many things wrong with it, so you don't like it and wouldn't buy it, don't say it's broken just to get hits on your web site. I'm done here......

          • http://AndroidPolice.com/ Liam Spradlin

            Yeah, the unit would not connect over ADB. Thanks, though.

          • David Carver

            You have to enable developer mode for it to connect over adb. Out of the box itself it won't do it, and it's a good thing.

            As for taking screen shots, you can always use your phone to take screen shots of the TV screen itself. No methion in this article of the various apps specifically design for the TV. Install apps like Thuuz Sports which provides realtime updates about hot sporting events, and also integrates with the TV channel changing capability and Watch ESPN, the Post TV for news, Serenity for Android for a better Plex media client, and ViMu media player for a very good media player. You can also get Twit.tv on the device. With out mentioning the other apps that are available to be installed the review is only partially complete. PrimeTime is only mentioned briefly and if you are a cable cord cutter and don't use the Live TV integration then the best part of Google TV isn't being used.

  • Jason Wright

    I have a Vizio Co-star right now and we use it frequently but it is definitely not without it's faults. I really think that the biggest holdup right now though is hardware. Watching the XBOX One demo, performance is the one thing that made me jealous and I'd be willing to drop twice as much money on a box that performed better than what we have. When I hit the guide button I don't want to wait 15 seconds for it to load the information. Primetime is awesome but it's slow to load. When I go to a website that has Flash on it (WatchESPN), it frequently crashes. My Nexus One far outperforms the Co-Star in a much smaller device. I want the performance from my phone on my TV screen.

  • http://www.androidpolice.com/ David Ruddock

    I love people who defend Google TV. It's the sort of apologist sentiment you see rallying around plenty of tech products that have been utter functional and commercial failures, and that their few remaining fanboys will ceaselessly come to the rescue of in the comments sections of blogs everywhere. I'm sure there are still some Symbian crazies running around on some corner of the internet.

    Guess what? Google TV is a failure. As a platform. As a piece of software. And even as an idea. It is simply not good, and never once have I seen someone *other* than a Google TV owner speak highly of it. Because it has appeal to the tinkering / hacking / Google fanboy audience, there is seemingly this belief that you have to "figure out" how to get the "most" out of the Google TV experience. That's such a fallacious, weak argument, and it's the same crap I hear spewed on a regular basis about smartphones and tablets that aren't very good out of the box. "Just toss on a launcher," "just root it," "just flash a ROM."

    Those are all the symptoms of a product that fails as a consumer experience. Even Apple TV, which is more simplified, streamlined, and elegant - if more limited in some ways - isn't that good. It's a half-measure, and without marrying live television / listings / on-demand seamlessly into an entire experience, no product like this will ever be truly successful.

    But Google TV is worse than that, because it's a slow, buggy, outdated mess. Many 3rd party TV apps are languishing, and sure, there's a promised Jelly Bean update for the platform, but how many Google TV devices do you think are actually going to get it? How many more Google TV devices that aren't cheap Chinese garbage do you think are even going to be released this year? My guess is that you could probably count them on one hand. Some OEMs even seem to be suggesting that HDMI passthrough for set top boxes is on the way out in future Google TV boxes, so they're giving up on the dream of true TV integration. Good luck competing with Roku, guys, because I'm pretty sure no one in that market really gives a crap if they can check their Gmail -

    Meanwhile, Microsoft announced a console that will play the most-desired games on the market, can be controlled with a god-damn magical wizard's eye (aka Kinect), and happens to play Netflix, too. And lets you easily transition back to live TV, a main splash area, and gaming using said wizard eye. Oh, and you can control it / use it as a big web browser via dedicated apps for Windows touch devices and Android that also link up with your Xbox Live account.

    And you people expect Google TV, even being much cheaper, to compete with something like this, along with whatever Apple is inevitably working on to succeed Apple TV in this space? Talk about a reality distortion field.

    • David Carver

      Have you used a Sony second generation Google TV or anything other than a Revue? Uh, the only way one can check their GMail on the TV is through the web browser, and honestly not many people want to do that.

      • http://www.androidpolice.com/ David Ruddock

        I have, and it was an example in passing. Insert "check Twitter" - the point is the same.

        • David Carver

          Well for Twitter, there are a couple of apps for that. The official Twitter app and Social TV which will show tweets while you watch live TV. Sure you can also use the Twitter Web site as well.

          The microsoft console is going to cost at least $500 when it comes out, PLUS you will still have to have an XBox Live subscription to get at any of the value added features.

          I guess I'll just stick with Android Central for some well thought out reviews that focus on the product they are reviewing without doing any mud slinging when they feel a product is bad.

    • davianny

      I really do not think or feel its some sort of apologist sentiment or that it is even a matter of defending Google TV. It seems to me with each and every passing of a review, be it a GTV device or not, the writer always brings up Apple. In this case Apple TV. The review should just focus on comparing the device among other GTV devices. If you want to bring in Apple TV or a Roku, etc into the picture, then make it a comparison review, otherwise stay focused on the device at hand. As for the remote, for the OP to compare it to an Apple TV one and actually stating that the Apple one is lust-worthy due to its 7 buttons as oppose to the 85 on the Asus remote. really. I would like to see the writer try typing in a web address using the Apple one, or even speaking into the remote for a search etc. It's comparing apples to oranges and really doesn't belong in such a review. But at least its not as bad as saying it gives him cancer like Ron Amadeo did with his ridiculous review of the Galaxy Note 10.1 last August.

      Before Google TV, searching for content was almost impossible, now its way better. Does the platform have faults, yes, can areas be improved, yes. But to call it a failure is a bit much.

      As for stating that it has appeal to the tinkering / hacker / Google Fanboy audience. What's wrong with that. Most of your readers are in that category. If tinkering with your device is too much, then why are you even working in a Android oriented website. Even if the device was 100% perfect, no device will make everyone happy. They will still tinker / hack it to make it their very own unique device.

    • Christopher Garcia

      Um.. "never once have I seen someone *other* than a Google TV owner speak highly of it."... So.. you mean.. People who actually OWN the device like it, and speak highly of it... As opposed to people who don't own one, and bash it.. who do you think should have the opinion on the device? And if those who own it, love it.. shouldn't that say something?

    • hmosh

      I'm sorry but you really don't have a clue on this product. I have two Sony GTVs and one of them is regularly used by an 8 year old to watch netflix. I can't remember the last time an app crashed, and I regularly use it to play 1080p bluray files over wifi.

      I can't speak for the Asus Cube's interface, but on my TV everything is smooth and works just fine. I have a twitter app that I actually use. I don't have cable but I've tried it with cable as well and it's excellent. You can be watching CNN and simply type cooking on the keyboard and it shows you all the cooking programs currently on TV. Show me another smart TV that even comes close.

      This things comes with Chrome, and flash, which means you can watch almost anything. You have ViMu player which has played every type of video file I've thrown at it. It even has support for multiple audio streams and subtitles. Yes, try that on an Apple TV. Oh the ViMu app supports airplay, so I can stream videos from my iPad when I want to.

      Plex is how I watch all my media. and a lot of internet streaming video. I even watch the daily show streams using Plex. And for everything else, I use Netflix, which works great on Google TV (it's integrated into prime time and search). The Youtube app is excellent and I use it almost every day, and you can instantly play videos from the android or ios app on any google tv in the house. When people come over, everyone can send videos to the queue and we've good times with this when friends come over.

      None of this is customized or hacked in any way. This is the out of the Box experience, I just installed a handful of apps and I was done. People that come over to my house use it and love it and they want one. Kids and grandparents use it with no problems.

      I honestly think you guys should step outside the bubble of tech news sites a bit more and interact with some real users. If you're wondering why you're seeing so many negative reviews on this post, it's because it's just incredibly off the mark. It has nothing to do with being fanboys (plenty of iOS and Microsoft stuff in this house by the way, and my living room TV runs windows media center).

    • Google_Is_The_Higgs_Boson

      My GTV work just great! I haven't hacked it... I own one, so my opinion is valid, vs someone that doesn't own one...

  • duse

    I appreciate the effort but I feel this review is lacking in content. All you really talk about is its size, the cube UI idea, and the remote. If I was looking to buy this, I'd need to know about a lot more, such as the speed of the interface, smoothness of web browsing, app compatibility, playing music/multitasking, video codecs supported, how well major apps like Plex work, etc. etc. You dismiss the entire platform very readily without providing much reason at all, which makes it appear you were biased with this opinion before using the product.

    I do not really understand the criticisms against Google TV. Commercially, yes it is a failure, since your average consumer doesn't know about it. But as a platform, what specifically are the issues? Android on your phone, Android on your tablet, or any OS at all, is just meant to be a platform for applications. How is this any different? If I bought a Google TV I'd want to use it for Plex, Chrome, and music, all things I can't do very well or at all without it. If it lets me do those things plus several other apps, how is it such a failure? Nothing about the Xbox is impressive or desirable to me. I have no need for Kinect or live TV integration since cable TV is mostly overpriced garbage. I do not need a $300-400 gaming box. If you WANT a gaming box that also integrates with live TV, great. But clearly there is also a market for a simple device that can just be used as an app platform, which all Android is anyway, and it seems to me Google TV provides that. Of course I won't disagree it's far from perfect and needs a lot more attention than it's getting. I'm just waiting for the right hardware and combined with the Jelly Bean update it seems to be in a fine spot. They just need to simplify the remotes and market it.

    • Google_Is_The_Higgs_Boson

      Unless Asus tweaked the software, it plays avi, mp4, mp3... No mkv, but plexs allows you to play mkvs... Plex works about as good as the desktop version does... I'm hoping we see XBMC after the update, being that they released the NDK for GoogleTV, 4.2... I have the Sony blu-ray first gen GTV... I've had it since beta, and been enjoying it... My only real problem with GoogleTV, is app support, being stuck in honeycomb limbo, and Chrome browser... All three are being fixed...

    • Google_Is_The_Higgs_Boson

      Play music works great, Pandora works great...

  • Bas

    If I may offer a suggestion: send the Cube to me and I will write a second opinion review. I could really use a Google TV device, so I would be glad to write my opinion about it.

  • http://twitter.com/lawatslord Lawats Lord

    Google TV is a lost for me! i waited long enough to buy the logitech revue in Canada and it never was on sale (luckily). Actually my Xbox 360 fill the blank! great apps available (netflix - youtube - xbox music - slacker radio)! much much much appreciated kinect integration ( Sometime when i'm watching tv in the living room i wish i could control the cable tv/ PVR with my voice).
    With the Xbox One coming if the integration with cable tv is as seamless as they showed, then google/apple will need to really step up their game.
    (I hope the Xbox One include wireless display technology)

    ps: sorry if my english isn't clear enough french guy here

  • redragn5

    Honestly it seems like every review I've read of GTV devices ends up coming to the same conclusion: as fan of Android and users of Google's services we really want to like GTV and to make it an integral part of our living room experience, but it's not good enough. I disagree with the statement that as an idea it's a failure though - as a concept I think it can really be great, just current versions of it just really aren't up to par. I do think that it could eventually be what we want it to be and the update to 4.2/possible Nexus Q revamp seem to be steps in the right direction. I really want them to get this right for situations like my family where we all have android smartphones and we have subscriptions to services like Netflix but have no streaming solution to our main TV/Home Theater (I will hook up our Wii, but inevitably my sister will move it to another TV then complain she can't watch Netflix on the main one...). Google TV could potentially give the connectivity and streaming solution that would work with the level of reliability and with minimal complexity the rest of my family would prefer - now if only that potential could be a reality...

  • tym0

    Given that the 3.5mm jack is labeled "IF Out" are you sure it is to received signal from the Cube remote? It seems more likely that it's to control a cable box through the Cube.

    • Dave

      Yeah, it's definitely for an IR blaster, because an IR-based remote doesn't make sense when sometimes one end would be pointed forward and sometimes a long edge would be pointed forward, due to the keyboard on the back.

      The discussions above have been calling out some more conceptual problems with the review, but let's be honest -- this is an outright factual error.

      I'm not so much offended by the phoned-in review as I am disappointed at the way multiple members of the Android Police staff are jumping in to defend it. What the hell, people? Your goal here shouldn't be to be always right no matter what, that's like PR technique from the last century. Have a real discussion with your readers, be open to criticism. What you're doing now looks pretty bush league. The best thing to do would be to step back, spend another week or so with the device, and then come back with a round 2 review that addresses some of the gaps and criticisms that we all seem to be having with this first attempt at a review. We won't hate you for admitting you stumbled; we'll be glad that you're willing to listen and improve your game. We're on your side! We're not the enemy! Artem Russakovskii, stop calling your engaged readers d-bags.

      • http://www.androidpolice.com/ Artem Russakovskii

        Look, I may even agree with some of his comments, but the way he presented them, all while spewing out things like "fucking retard," didn't make the best impression on me as far as his attitude goes. By all means, be very engaged, but keep it civil and respectful, you know?

        • David Carver

          If you are referring to me, I've kept it civil.

          • http://www.androidpolice.com/ Artem Russakovskii

            No, not you, the guy who said "fucking retard" - Levi Wilcox.

          • Levi Wilcox

            Sorry if I offended anyone but I seriously thought you guys would have developed a thicker skin when it comes to "reviews" like this.

  • TynanDeRosa

    I've never seen the AP staff act so unprofessional in my almost 3 years being here. This is extremely discouraging. The story was bad, and the comments by them are worse. I think I have to find a new android-specific news outlet. Screwing up a good thing. :/

    • http://www.androidpolice.com/ Artem Russakovskii

      I think we can agree that some of the people in this thread woke up on the wrong side of the bed, then some others had a knee-jerk reaction to them, and it all spiraled out of control.

      • TynanDeRosa

        I can accept that, we all have bad days, I'd use it as a learning experience for all parties involved.